Check Point Master Architect

[sebastan_bach]

hi barry u are right. i guress the qualification exam should not be 1500$ pls it;s would not be possible for a lot of people.
i guess the lab exxam should be almost equilant to ccie lab exam cause we have to pay for travelling and logging since checkpoint will be hosting their lab exams in some centers only.

regards

sebastan

[mhoefle]

Hi Barry:

Plans for the certification and exams are still under development, and so subject to change. However, the anticipated exam fees would be in line with other master level exams, such as the CCIE, which currently charges $300 for the written portion, and $1250 for the hands-on lab portion of that exam, for a total of $1550.

As well, to qualify to take the exams, candidates will only need to be a current CCSE+.

Mark Hoefle
Education Services
Check Point Software Technologies, Inc.

[BarryStiefel]

Originally Posted by mhoefle

Hi Barry:

Plans for the certification and exams are still under development, and so subject to change. However, the anticipated exam fees would be in line with other master level exams, such as the CCIE, which currently charges $300 for the written portion, and $1250 for the hands-on lab portion of that exam, for a total of $1550.

As well, to qualify to take the exams, candidates will only need to be a current CCSE+.

Mark Hoefle
Education Services
Check Point Software Technologies, Inc.

Hello Mark,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm really impressed that Check Point employees are now participating on our discussion board. My goal here is to provide the most useful possible resources for everyone in the Check Point community, and this includes Check Point employees. Welcome aboard!

I'm already concerned about the cost of the current exams. My company is a VUE testing center and while I don't know how Check Point and VUE split up the $150 fee, I can assure you that my testing center gets none of it.

As you can see from the map of our users (at the top of every page in this discussion board), members of our community live all over the world, and I suspect many of them find US$150 to be a lot of money.

To look at the total path towards the CPMSA certification, I think the costs look like this:

CCSA, CCSE, CCSE+: Four exams (allowing for one failure) at $150 each is $600.

The CPMSA written exam: $300.

The CPMSA practical exam: Assuming the average candidate will have to repeat it once: 2 X $1,250 = $2,500.

Add in two nights in a hotel (assuming near Dallas or Redwood City) for $200.

Add in airfare and a rental car: $600.

Already we're up to $4,200, and that's assuming you do all your studying on your own and don't take any training. If you take the three Check Point courses at an ATC, you can spend another $5,000.

I want to see the certification program as accessible as possible to all possible students, I want students and the unemployed and career changers to be able to succeed with it. With prices this high, only current employees of companies who are willing to pay for all of this will have access to the CPMSA certification.

The IT field is one of the last professional careers remaining in which a college degree isn't really required and in which motivated, smart people can still pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I'd like to see the only barrier to successfully completing the CPMSA be skill and ability, rather than cost.

Also, consider your goals for this certification. Isn't one of the goals to get a lot of certified, skilled "evangelists" out there? If you cut out the profit margin in the certification process you could make it up later in the purchase recommendations a larger number of candidates will make.

My suggestion? Have a high "list price" for reimbursed-employee candidates, but offer steep discounts for students, the unemployed, career changers, and anyone else asserting they will be paying out of their own pocket and who won't be reimbursed for the expense.

Again, thanks for joining us here in thoughtful conversation. I already like the way this going.

[amccarth]

Hi All,
We're going to change the requirements to take the master exam. We'll require CCSA NGX, CCSE NGX, & CCSE Plus NGX, but removing the others. You'd still want to be prepared to answer questions on the exam of our other products since this will test your knowledge and experience in architecting a Check Point security solutions. The price for the written exam for the CCMA will be higher because the length of the test will be longer than others we have published and we have to cover the cost of the exam delivery fees of the test center. The price of the lab exam is equivalent of CCIE and will help us cover the administrative overhead required to proctor this exam (which is an 8 hour exam)

Cheers,
Amy

[RobertGraham]

Here here Barry!

A couple years ago, I went to Check Point Mgt 3 training (for the CCSE+) with several experienced admins. During lunch we came to the topic of training and certification with Check Point.

We all agreed that Check Point is really missing the point. The more accessible (not easy - this dilutes it) they make materials and tests for people to become Check Point certified, the more products they sell. IT managers must invariably rely on expert analysis/opinion from those with the technical skills and understanding. The more people that are versed in the amazing benefits of Check Point products (warning facetious), the more they'll tend to recommend those solutions.

This is one of the reasons that Cisco is so ubiquitous. Everyone's certified and they want to stick with the technology that they know and trust. I grew up with Nokia IPSO, guess what I recommend to companies when they ponder the security platform on which to place their FW-1 instances...

Training/Learning/Certification shouldn't be a profit center for vendors. They should be a cost-center. It's an avenue that is tied to marketing and customer support. Many of us who are seasoned FW-1 engineers have more knowledge than many of the folks working at Check Point's tech support. I recommend that Check Point management stop gnawing on the bones that are Tech Support and Education as channels for financial nutrients. Aren't there better channels for Check Point to make a profit?

This is my opinion, there are many others like it, but this one is mine.

[mhoefle]

Hi Barry & Robert:

As one of those “boot strapping job changers” who paid his own way through many a cert. course and test, I totally understand. To that aim, we are adding a range of Check Point Certified Specialist courses (complete with tests/certificates), such as the newly released CPCS Integrity course, and the upcoming CPCS InterSpect and CPCS Connectra courses, to name a few. More will follow.

The Check Point Master Architect certificate is really for a different audience. The candidate for this certificate wouldn’t be the entry-level IT person, the IT person new to Check Point products, or the job-changer. This certificate is for someone with (as is recommended) at least 5 years Check Point hands-on experience, and 8 years in the IT field, who already holds multiple Check Point certificates. It is a validation, really, of and for this person’s hard-won Master-level expertise with Check Point products in the enterprise.

I hope this helps claify the focus of the cert. a bit.

We very much appreciate your input. Thanks.

Mark Hoefle
Education Services
Check Point Software Technologies, Inc.

[BarryStiefel]

Originally Posted by mhoefle

Hi Barry & Robert:

As one of those “boot strapping job changers” who paid his own way through many a cert. course and test, I totally understand. To that aim, we are adding a range of Check Point Certified Specialist courses (complete with tests/certificates), such as the newly released CPCS Integrity course, and the upcoming CPCS InterSpect and CPCS Connectra courses, to name a few. More will follow.

The Check Point Master Architect certificate is really for a different audience. The candidate for this certificate wouldn’t be the entry-level IT person, the IT person new to Check Point products, or the job-changer. This certificate is for someone with (as is recommended) at least 5 years Check Point hands-on experience, and 8 years in the IT field, who already holds multiple Check Point certificates. It is a validation, really, of and for this person’s hard-won Master-level expertise with Check Point products in the enterprise.

I hope this helps claify the focus of the cert. a bit.

We very much appreciate your input. Thanks.

Mark Hoefle
Education Services
Check Point Software Technologies, Inc.

Hello Mark,

Thanks for your reply. I think you make a good point about the senior level of this new certification and its expectations about experience, so I'm going to drop "students and the unemployed and career changers" from the argument and limit my concern to candidates whose employers won't pay for this exam.

I anticipate employers will be reluctant to pay $1,550 (over ten times the cost of a "regular" certification exam), leaving many qualified candidates to pay it out of their own pocket. It's one thing to extract every last possible dollar out of your customers, but another thing to start trying to pull money out of your customers' employees, who should be your allies and evangelists.

I'm worried about what seems like a frequent Check Point mistake, which is to coercively maximize short-terms profits at everyone else's expense, leaving unhappy partners, customers and end-users in your wake. Check Point now has US$1,700,000,000 in cash in the bank and yet is now going after members of its user group demanding they hand over what could be for many of them a couple of weeks of take home pay just to prove they know how to use your products?

Why make certifications a profit center? I think Check Point would do far better in the long run by subsidizing end user evangelists. Your end users could be the best marketing machine you've ever had, but not if you look at us as just another sheep to shear.

[sebastan_bach]

hi all i see the debate abt the cert cpmsa. i would also like to know what will the candidate achieve after passing the cert. i mean like in cisco partnership programs goldpartners need 4 ccie;s silver needs 2 ccie and this is how cisco has created a market for ccie;s in the market . but what abt this cert after spending so much time and money into this cert what will be our value in the market will there be demand of people who would have passed this cert. i feel checkpoint should first create a market for people who pass this cert then it becomes sensible for prople how pass to encash thier time and money they put in for the cert. otherwise it will be just a another cert having no market value.

just my views.

regards

sebastan

[RobertGraham]

One point that hasn't yet been addressed is, "Cisco charges similar prices for their exams."

However, there are some points to be made here:

1. CCIE is a long established standard
2. Cisco charged much less when it first conceived the CCIE
3. Companies currently demand CCIEs
4. Cisco has a much larger customer base than Check Point, which translates to greater demand for the cert.

None of this is true for the CPMA or whatever the name is right now. If Check Point insists on making this a profit-center, maybe they should try to grow it first...

Oh, don't listen to me. I'm just bitter because my application for a job at Check Point got rejected! ;-)

[chillyjim]

Originally Posted by BarryStiefel

I anticipate employers will be reluctant to pay $1,550 [...]

This is right in-line with the Cisco CCIE, and people pay for that, knowing that CCIE's have a tendency to jump jobs at a drop of a hat.

Why make certifications a profit center? I think Check Point would do far better in the long run by subsidizing end user evangelists. Your end users could be the best marketing machine you've ever had, but not if you look at us as just another sheep to shear.

At $1500 I doubt CHKP is making much, if anything, off of the tests. Now if they get a lot of people taking it, then maybe they will but if you figure 4 people per lab session (~$6K) and say you run 2 labs/month, that's $144K/year. Now take out the cost of the proctor (figure $80K salary and 25K bennies) and your down to about $40k/year to cover other costs.

(BTW 4 per lab, 2 labs per month is what the CCIE started out as).

[BarryStiefel]

But that $80k/year proctor isn't going to just sit around and do nothing on the other 20 workdays per month. You're talking about just two days per month, plus a day or two each time for setup.

And the comparisons with Cisco aren't valid. Check Point isn't anywhere near Cisco in terms of company size or marketability of their certified end-users. If the certifications costs the same, then the CCIE is a far better deal because there are so many more opportunities to put it to use.

Originally Posted by chillyjim

This is right in-line with the Cisco CCIE, and people pay for that, knowing that CCIE's have a tendency to jump jobs at a drop of a hat.


At $1500 I doubt CHKP is making much, if anything, off of the tests. Now if they get a lot of people taking it, then maybe they will but if you figure 4 people per lab session (~$6K) and say you run 2 labs/month, that's $144K/year. Now take out the cost of the proctor (figure $80K salary and 25K bennies) and your down to about $40k/year to cover other costs.

(BTW 4 per lab, 2 labs per month is what the CCIE started out as).

[sebastan_bach]

hi barry i totally agree with u man. checkpoint has a less market presence as compared to cisco. cisco has marketed his products through it;s certifications . totday people are ready to spend money for ccie cause they know once they achieve it ithey will recover that money in 6 months time. it;s very awarding certification in the industry right now. whereas has launched so many products and certifications the only demand i see in the market is for ccsa and ccse what abt the other product specialist papers i hardly see anyone going for it. eg:connectra,vsx,Integrity and all.

i gues checkpoint should create a job market for their certified professionals in the market and then everything.

regards

sebastan

[glen.messenger]

Hi,

I believe that Check Point has the majority of the market presence in the firewall/enforcement module field of mid to large organisations/enterprises. It is for this reason that CCSA's and CCSE's are in demand; whereas Cisco's PIX's and ASA's arent as widely used in enterprise settings for whatever reason (enterprise management of devices, capacity, diversity etc etc).

However, Check Point has minimal presence in the market outside of the enforcement module space; whereas Cisco has a presence in all networking-related fields. Also, the CCIE Security not only covers the PIX/ASA's but also IPS's, routers, switches and specific protocols (OSPF, (E)IGRP, BGP etc).

If Check Point could produce better quality products in these other fields (excluding VSX and SPLAT), thus increasing the demand for the products, then the demand for proven skills across the board of CP products would increase - i.e. demand for the CPMA.

Just my opinion. It may be the case that I have not used these other products enough to fully appreciate them. Please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

Either way, i'll be attempting the CPMA as soon as I can.

Glen

[chillyjim]

Check Point is going to stay strictly a security company, they have no intent on going into the switch/router market.

FWIW Check Point holds 38% of the Firewall/VPN market with Cisco coming in at 36%, basically a tie, but Cisco counts all of its routers in their numbers.

As for CCIE vs CCMSA, when Cisco started the CCIE they were no where near as dominant as they are now (Bay Networks owned the switching market) and the CCIE lab was $5,000. The cost to bring someone from ground zero to CCIE was in the $15-20k range (having sent many employees through the process).

As for the lab proctor, going by what I saw from Cisco's, a good 3/4 their time will be spent proctoring/scoring tests, lab maintenance and materials review (yes I'm being optimistic CHKP will put in all the resources they need to do this).

Yes $1,500 is a lot of money, but I suspect most of the VAR, who this is really aimed at, won't bat an eye at it as soon as CHKP makes it a requirement for upper-level resellers. As for end-customers, the big ones will pay for it just like they pay for CCIE, CCISP, ISCA, GIAC, etc.

Now if CHKP doesn't see it being sold I'm sure the price will come down. We have two folks from CHKP's training team paying attention, keep giving them feedback.

Also remember to take Barry's CCMSA bootcamp so you only have to pay the lab fee once ;)

[rgupta]

The cost looks high so it perhaps scare away the ones who just want to try it out for the sake of it!!! But one latest update suggests, one does not have to pass 6 - 7 exams, just only 3, ccsa, ccse and ccse plus of NGX version. Check out:
http://www.checkpoint.com/services/e...ma/become.html

[Gavrilo]

The CP website says the following prerequisites are required for CCMA:

CCMA FAQ

What are the candidate prerequisites for the CCMA certification?
Five years Check Point product experience and eight years IT experience (recommended), CCSA, CCSE, and CCSE Plus.

Can someone please explain why you need VSX, Provider-1 etc to take the written and Lab exams as it is not obviouse this is the case and I for one would consider taking this certification.

Gavrilo

[cciesec2006]

Purely from an economic perspective, this cert is a waste of money. I know
a lot of non-techies people (directors, managers, etc...) know the four letters
"CCIE" but I can assure you that none of them knows what CPMCA stands for.
Heck they probably that it is a scam or something.

Just my 2c.

[kwfinley]

CCMA update -
Check Point Certified Master Architect. Final name.
You must be CCSE Plus certified to qualify for the exam. We state NGX because the CCMA is based on the NGX version, currently R63 or higher depending on the version we load for the lab. All computer based questions are founded on R65.
Why do we require any prior certification - two reasons - first, if you aren't at least at that level, you won't pass anyhow. We know because during the validation period we let some folks try. Second reason is very selfish - it takes a bunch of resources to run the lab - we burn a week just for one candidate for one day. (more on that in a moment) If the candidate isn't certified, they don't have a chance.
Saw a posting about certifications expiring - I'll ask Barry to put a big notice up about this. Certifications are version specific. THEY DO NOT EXPIRE. As long as the version is in the marketspace, your certification is good. If you've been certified in a specific version and a prospective employer is using that version, he doesn't care what we say. We just stop supporting a version when it is more than two versions down from current. Also, your access to SecureKnowledge ends after 12 or 18 months depending on the level of certification.
Now, about pricing -
New exam items - you can write about six a day. Don't forget the exam validation process. That includes convening panels, collating input, resolving differences.
Developing new scenarios - right now, including the costs of developing a whole simulated exam technology, testing scenarios and paying for the pilot program, we have better than $200K invested in this exam and we haven't made a dime. How many candidates do you think we can amortize that over? The catch - we can only use that one scenario on so many candidates - it is a full time job developing new scenarios and validating them.
Convening review panels to score the hands-on lab - Each session is reviewed by a panel of experts for scoring. Those experts don't come cheap. We spend no less than four days, not counting the day of the exam setting up the exam, and then compressing and archiving the results. We generate enough data during the exam to fill seven or eight DVD's. That data has to be reviewed along with the personal logs of the candidate. If there is any question, we have to reinstall that exam and run forward through the data to validate any questions.
Archiving data - we are required to archive exam results against challenges. Maintaining the required version control is a major undertaking.

Bottom line - the CCMA is not a profit center proposition. Honestly, it never will be. None of our exams are profit center propositions. CCSA and CCSE come close, but when you factor in the maintenance costs and hidden costs that don't directly impact the run-time costs, they fall short. They are developed and offered for convenience of the hiring managers who are looking for an objective criteria for hiring security professionals. As for relevance, CRN and Certification Magazine rank the Check Point exams in the top five for demand and ROI. They are worth every penny.

Hope this information helps.
kw

[Thorpuse]

Appreciate the comments on this thread, it's good to see CP people getting involved.

The thing that I am still struggling with is this - what tangible benefit does this certification provide that would justify the significant time, money and investment (particularly for those people not in the USA!) that would give me incentive to get this certification? I've been tracking this since its inception. The Check Point website, at Check Point Software: CCMA Benefits still does not list a single benefit that this certification will give a CCMA. Worse still, it asks the question, "Please email us with any suggestions for CPMSA (sic) benefits". So while the aim is laudable, the benefits for going through all this time and expense is still totally undefined, and apart from the vanity exercise, I can't see a tangible benefit beyond a very exclusive and expensive piece of paper.

Interestingly, I asked this very question about the benefits of being a CCMA at CPX in Bangkok. The response I received was this - "Well, if you want to be a Check Point Platinum Partner, you'll need to get this certification". I really hope that there's a better response being planned than this.

Please don't misunderstand this - I'm a big fan of what this certification is trying to achieve, and would like this to become a premium standard for security and Check Point certification. But as it stands today, I can't find any reasons that I could be motivated or I could justify from a employment perspective to expend the time, resources and travel to get this cert. Please, CP people on this thread, give me something I can use to justify this!

[chillyjim]

So let me ask this, what benefits does a CCIE hold for non-resellers?

What I know of is:

1. More $$ from some employers, though not as much as a few years ago.
2. A CCIE only mailing list.